International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic

Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART II
Because the transcript of the cross-examination is 150 pages long we
have broken it into 12 easy to read segments. If you wish to read the
whole thing at once go to:

Page 10614

1 Wednesday, 2 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] How long a prison sentence did you serve in

11 Gradisce?

12 A. One year.

13 Q. You were there together with Petar Sale and another person in

14 same cell; right?

15 A. Yes, in the same penitentiary, but we were not in the same room.

16 Q. And you know, later, that the state security service recorded

17 activities with the third person that you were with?

18 A. I don't know anything about that.

19 Q. Is it correct -- I mean, I imagine that you do know that at that

20 time you were monitored, taken care of, I don't know how to put it,

21 Milanko Orescanin, an operations officer of the state security

22 A. This is the first time I hear that name.

23 Q. He worked at the state security service in Slavonski Brod?

24 A. This is the first time I hear that name, and in Slavonski Brod,

25 was there only a few times in my life.

Page 10615

1 Q. Well, he had very detailed information about your activities

2 concerning that person. Tell me: Do you know anything about that?

3 Because there is evidence that after the HDZ victory, you were the

4 who gave instructions to have that operations officer killed, the
man from

5 Slavonski Brod, and he was liquidated on the 15th of August, 1991, a

6 religious holiday, Sunday.

7 Q. This is the first I ever hear of it. I never held any executive

8 positions and I had no influence whatsoever on anyone's liberty or

9 Q. But there are persons, there are witnesses, Mr. Mesic, who

10 according to your instructions kidnapped that person, Mijokovic,

11 from Slavonski Brod and Jokic, Ivan from Slavonski Brod?

12 A. You're probably the one who is socialising with them. I have no

13 idea.

14 Q. Also according to your instructions, Momo Devrnja, a Serb from

15 Orahovac, a forwarder was liquidated, a man who had a conflict with

16 I imagine you remember that?

17 A. Just as much influence as I had on Lincoln's assassination.

18 That's about it.

19 Q. On the 24th of December, Muselinovic, Miodrag with his wife

20 and neighbour Desanka Radonjic [phoen] was the chief of SUP in

21 and he was killed according to your instructions.

22 A. The same answer as for the previous one.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the question.

24 The speed is impossible to follow.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to pause. The interpreters can't keep up

Page 10616

1 this pace. Now, you both speak the same language; therefore, it
would be

2 better if there was a pause between the question and answer. And

3 after the answer. Mr. Milosevic, will you bear that in mind.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. According to your instructions, Serb villages Pusina, Kokocak,

6 Kraskovici [phoen], Brekoracani [phoen], Gornja Pistana, Slatinski

7 Drenovac were destroyed; is that correct or is that not correct?

8 A. That has nothing to do with actual facts. I found out about the

9 torching of these villages and I protested. I launched by protest

10 President Tudjman.

11 Q. With who?

12 A. With President Tudjman, and you had also socialised with him.

13 Q. You were involved in the Hefner affair in 1967, the one that had

14 to do with the selling of white slaves, and also you remember that

15 referred to an affair that you were involved in that had to do with

16 machinery for the textile industry in Leskovac.

17 A. No. This is just a figment of someone's imagination.

18 Q. Is it correct that you were the main organiser of the affair

19 had to do with military records, abolishing the security records
that were

20 kept? Need I remind you of why you did that?

21 A. This is no affair. This has to do with the following: The

22 National Defence authorities kept records about young men who were

23 supposed to go and do their military service. As president of the

24 municipality, I got information that Croats were not being

25 active in the army, that they did not enroll in military schools.

Page 10617

1 did not take up commissions and they did not go to military schools

2 general. I was surprised by the fact that it was only Serbs who were

3 applying. I realised that there was one particular item in

4 questionnaires, that is to say, item 32, and this was something that

5 filled by the officials of the Secretariats of National Defence and

6 asked to see what was written there. Since a person involved

7 because it said that his father -- his name is Slavko Sulovnjak. He

8 in the army. And in that questionnaire, it said that his father was

9 Ustasha from 1941 and that he was tried as a war criminal. However,

10 father had been a partisan. His father had retired as an

11 officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. I asked for this to be

12 into. They did look into it and they established that for over 90

13 cent of Croatian young men, it said that they were children of

14 and that therefore they could not attend such schools. Serb
children did

15 have passing grades, though, so to speak. That is what I know about

16 32.

17 Q. That's what the Croatian authorities wrote. It was not the Serb

18 authorities.

19 A. It was Serbs who were employed in the National Defence

20 authorities, and I can even give you names if you're really

21 Q. Are you trying to say that Croats were not employed in Croatia

22 National Defence authorities?

23 A. It is only when I came to Orahovac as president of the

24 municipality, the first Croat became head of the Secretariat for

25 Defence.

Page 10618

1 Q. All right. Is it correct that while you were in prison, and this

2 Petar Sale, by the way, is a well-known chauvinist from Sibenik; is

3 right? While you were in prison, the officials of the state security

4 service of Croatia tried to employ your services for the rest of

5 prison term?

6 A. Again this is a figment of your imagination. I did have a prison

7 sentence of two years and two months. This was the first-instance

8 that made that ruling. However, the Supreme Court reduced the
sentence to

9 one year and I served one year. I don't really see why anybody would

10 to enlist my services. This is again pure fantasy.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, remind us again: When was this prison

12 sentence? What years.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1975, from May 1975 until May

14 1976.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it correct that after that you worked for the state security

17 service of Croatia in the sector for internal enemies at that?

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.

19 The next question is: What was the sentence imposed for?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For participation in the Croatian

21 Spring. I was president of a municipality and I took part in the

22 Spring, as it was called. I can also give you a list of all the

23 that I was accused of, if the Trial Chamber is interested in that.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10619

1 Q. When was this Croatian Spring?

2 A. One of the crimes was that I said: Let the devil get warm by our

3 Croatian fire but let him not extinguish the fire. At that time, a

4 topical question throughout Yugoslavia was the struggle for

5 amendments. I said for all of those who wish to see democracy, there

6 place in the train leading to democracy. Every person who tries to

7 sidetrack that train by putting his foot in front of it can only

8 without that foot. That's what I said.

9 I also said that the Croats tread their path to the Adriatic Sea

10 with their own sabres and all the rest followed in their footsteps.

11 are the crimes for which I was sentenced to two years, two months

12 prison.

13 Q. Is it true that you worked then for the state security service

14 Croatia in the department for internal enemies and that after that

15 started working for the state security service of the Yugoslav

16 A. The truth is that I asked for a passport. For 15 years I did not

17 have a passport. I asked for a passport to be issued to me as a

18 citizen. I was refused a passport, and I lodged a complaint because

19 that. And I did that every year, a few times every year, as a
matter of

20 fact. That is more or less all the contact I had with the police.

21 the rest just pertains to the realm of fantasy.

22 Q. All right. You did not work for the state security service of

23 Croatia, you did not work for the counter-intelligence service of

24 army, I assume. And it is assumed that your relationship with

25 dates back to those days, that is to say, some other period of
time. Do

Page 10620

1 you know that Franjo Tudjman replaced Spegelj as well because it was

2 suspicion that he was an agent of the KOS and that is why he fled

3 the border with the assistance of Josip Manolic, former head of the

4 Croatian police, with a false passport issued in a false name?

5 A. This is pure fantasy and that can be proved by the following: In

6 order to get a job after prison, I applied at 150 different posts.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. Yes. Let him finish.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was different, and it

9 had to do with Spegelj.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish and give his explanation.

11 A. What is the logic? Why would I work for the state security

12 service and I could not find a job? And I applied at 150 different

13 places, and I did not get a job anywhere. What is the logic of
that? And

14 for 15 years I did not have a passport.

15 As for Spegelj, the situation was well known. At a meeting of the

16 Croatian political leadership, Spegelj presented a plan, which is

17 to in Croatia as the Spegelj Plan. He proposed that warehouses be

18 from the Yugoslav People's Army, where weapons were, depots with

19 weapons of the Yugoslav People's Army, and not to touch military

20 but to take weapons. Since in these depots there were several
hundreds or

21 perhaps thousands of tanks, Spegelj said: If we take these weapons,

22 each tank we have people who are trained, who were in the army, and

23 Milosevic wants to move against Croatia, we have the resources to

24 him. In this way, we are going to avoid a war, because the Yugoslav

25 is in disarray. However, if we go on waiting, the Yugoslav army

Page 10621

1 consolidate itself, it's going to become a Serb army, and Milosevic

2 going for try to conquer Croatian territories with it. Tudjman

3 with that. I was the only one who voted in favour of that proposal,

4 that is why General Spegelj left his post.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I see that you really have this hang-up about Milosevic. You

7 mentioned me in every other sentence you uttered yesterday. On the

8 of what you said just now, Mr. Mesic, is that to show that you were

9 radical than Tudjman in your viewpoints that had to do with the war,

10 radical than Tudjman?

11 A. I'm really pleased that this question was put to me, because I

12 responded in one case how war can be averted; to take weapons from

13 hands of the army and to avoid the war. Because Croatia would have

14 something to meet Milosevic with if he were to attack. So this is a

15 about which I think I was right until the present day, and I think

16 General Spegelj was right too. Many lives would have been saved,
both of

17 Serbs and Croats, had it been that way.

18 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you, in connection with these

19 accusations levelled against Milosevic, and Milosevic's purported

20 over the army, what you said just now, that I really had -- had I

21 had the possibility of commanding the army, Yugoslavia would not

22 fallen apart, there would not have been a civil war. Regrettably, I

23 not have that possibility, so what happened, happened. But please

24 the following: You spoke about motives a few minutes ago. Motive
for a

25 cooperation with the state security service. Could your motive not

Page 10622












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 10623

1 been to reduce your prison sentence from two years to one year? You

2 it yourself. Just like now, the motive for cooperation here is to

3 punishment and responsibility that is your due, since you are a
person --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know you have to ask questions here

5 and not make speeches. The witness has said that he did not

6 with the state security service, so there seems little point going

7 about it. Your next question.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now that we're on the subject, that we're discussing such

11 questions: On the 24th of April -- on the 26th of April, 1994, you

12 for Feral Tribune: There were quite a few murders in the case of

13 the perpetrators, though known, are not in prison yet. People know

14 killed Reihl-Kir and Saban Krivokuca, the Zec family. The murders
of the

15 Zec family said themselves that they raped the woman and her

16 daughter and killed them. One of them is employed by the Ministry

17 Defence. You know it's not easy to sit at the same table with a

18 whose bodyguard took a 12-year-old child, followed a bullet into
his head

19 and then threw him into the garbage. It is my understanding that it

20 become clear to the Croat people as well that things have happened

21 are leading us to an abyss. So that is your own statement, isn't
it? I

22 have quoted you correctly, I believe. My question is: The changes

23 Croatia - you are now president of Croatia - is this fact --

24 JUDGE MAY: Let us first of all deal with the quotation which you

25 have attributed to the witness.

Page 10624

1 Mr. Mesic, that is a quotation from a paper in April 1994. Is the

2 quotation correct, and is there anything you want to say about it

3 we move on to another subject?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I always struggled for the

5 rule of law, and I did assert that crimes had been committed, and
the rule

6 of law had to prevail. I am struggling for the rule of law now as

7 I'm struggling for ascertaining individual guilt and responsibility,

8 because in that case, collective responsibility will be halted.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. My question was: The changes in Croatia which have

11 taken place, and you have been elected president, has that led to

12 clearing up and settling of accounts with the killers that you

13 said were known, that their names were known, the people who did

14 killings were known? Now, you, as head of the Croatian state now,

15 you succeeded in clearing all this up and bringing these people to

16 justice?

17 A. The people that you are talking about in this particular case

18 undergoing trial in Croatia at the moment.

19 Q. You mean all the victims that you mentioned, or just some of

20 A. The ones that we learnt about have been taken to trial, but none

21 of the cases have been completed, no files have been closed, and

22 investigations are under way and the perpetrators will be

23 Q. Do you yourself feel responsible for what took place and for the

24 crimes that were committed while you yourself occupied the highest

25 and offices in Croatia after Tudjman, that is to say, up until

Page 10625

1 A. The accused knows very well, because he's a lawyer, that I was

2 president of the Croatian Sabor or parliament assembly, which means

3 inter pares, and I was president of parliament. I was not in the

4 judiciary organs or in executive power and authority, nor was I in

5 police force. And the accused knows full well what the function of a

6 parliament is.

7 Q. As far as I remember, you were president of the executive board

8 the HDZ party as well.

9 A. Yes. I was the president of the executive board of the HDZ.

10 That's true, in 1992, which means from January to the elections,
that is

11 to say, until October 1992.

12 Q. Before that, you were prime minister when the HDZ won the

13 elections; isn't that right, Mr. Mesic, when it came into power?

14 A. Yes, you're quite right. You have the right facts and figures. I

15 was prime minister for three months. That is true. And after that I

16 up my post as member of the Yugoslav state Presidency. And that's
where I

17 remained until the end of 1991.

18 Q. All right. What you're saying is that after you returned from

19 Yugoslav state Presidency, when you were elected as president of

20 Croatian parliament, that that was not the second most important
office in

21 Croatia and that you link your activities up with the formal

22 taken by -- official decisions taken by parliament and not for the

23 political situation in Croatia, the state of affairs that prevailed

24 everything that went on there. You were the number two man in

25 isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?

Page 10626

1 A. I always strove for the functioning of the rule of law of the

2 Croatian state and the Croatian constitution recognises the division

3 power into three sections: The legal section and the two others, the

4 judiciary and everything else that the constitution implied and

5 stipulated, which means that I was president of parliament.

6 Q. All right. You therefore consider that you worked in line with

7 the constitution and that you did the work that comes under the

8 competencies of the parliament. Does the parliament have the right

9 send Croatian troops, for example, to Bosnia-Herzegovina or is that

10 something that comes under the competence of executive power?

11 A. It's a very good thing that this question was raised, and I

12 we ought to clear it up now. For the Croatian army to be able to

13 outside Croatia, the head of state could take a decision only with

14 acquiescence and agreement from the Croatian parliament. This kind

15 agreement was never issued by the Croatian parliament, whether

16 went outside Croatia, groups or individuals, it was not up to the

17 parliament to ascertain.

18 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. What you're saying is that you don't

19 consider yourself to be responsible for not having carried out your

20 constitutional duties, the ones that you insisted upon a moment

21 because parliament did not take decisions in that respect, the

22 that it should have taken. So you feel, do you, that this rids you
of all

23 responsibility?

24 A. Yes, that's quite right.

25 Q. And are you aware of the fact that, for example, units of the

Page 10627

1 Republic of Croatia launched an attack on the municipality of Brod

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 26th of March, 1992, a great crime was

3 there, the population of the village of Sijekovac in the Bosanski

4 municipality was massacred and even at that time Bosnia-Herzegovina

5 not even internationally recognised, which means that in all
respects it

6 was part and parcel of Yugoslavia, even in the most -- in the

7 formal sense. And their 108 -- the members of the 108th Brigade of

8 National Guard Corps were there from Slavonski Brod and so on and so

9 forth. There is a complete set of documents pertaining to the

10 perpetrators. Is it possible that you, as president of parliament,

11 not know about that?

12 A. There were several interventions that I had from several

13 of -- and the parents said that they had gone to Bosnia. I asked

14 information, both from the head of state and the defence minister,

15 they told me that it was only volunteers who had gone and that it
was the

16 volunteers who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina who volunteered to
go. I

17 had no other instruments at my disposal. The only thing I could do
was to

18 ask to be informed. But I must say that if anybody does have
knowledge as

19 to the fact that a citizen of Croatia perpetrated a crime anywhere,

20 this should be filed. Croatia is a country in which the rule of law

21 true today, and everybody will be held accountable.

22 Q. Well, you've received many such reports, Mr. Mesic, but are you

23 saying now that you did not know, as president of parliament, a
body who

24 was the sole body competent to take a decision in the matter, that
you did

25 not know that what came within the frameworks of your competence
was done

Page 10628

1 illegally and that you did not in fact know that Croatian troops

2 present in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Is that what you're saying?

3 A. That observation is quite correct. I did not know about that.

4 Q. All right. Did you know, for example, that from the 3rd of April

5 until the 9th of April an attack was launched on Kupres, the Gornji

6 Malovan, Kratez, Mala Plazenica, Zagliska Suma [phoen], the town of

7 Kupres, Begovo Selo, all these other villages, and so on and so

8 JUDGE MAY: Is looks as though this is going to be a reputation of

9 much of the cross-examination which we heard in the earlier part of

10 case, which doesn't relate to the evidence of the witness. What he

11 is that he heard of interventions, made inquiries and was told that
it was

12 due to volunteers. Perhaps, Mr. Mesic, in order to avoid a long

13 being given, if that's what the accused has in mind, can you answer

14 question: Can you tell us where these interventions which you

15 about took place, or can you not now remember?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly do not know the

17 locations they were sent to, but the parents of the young men told
us that

18 their children had gone to Bosnia. When I asked about this, the

19 minister and the former president of the Republic told me that not

20 single unit had gone, that it was only volunteers who had gone, and

21 is the volunteers who were actually born in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Now, I

22 had no other instruments for investigating the truthfulness of

23 assertions.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mesic, it wasn't a case of individuals, for example, if we

Page 10629

1 the 106th Brigade from Osijek, the full complement of it, and the

2 Mravi from Vukovar, the 101 Zagreb Brigade, the Student King

3 Battalion, the Zrinjski Battalion, the special purpose unit of the
MUP of

4 Croatia and so on and so forth. In addition to the KOS, the Zenga,
and so

5 on?

6 JUDGE MAY: Pause there, Mr. Milosevic. The witness can only give

7 evidence about what he knew himself. Now, what is being suggested,

8 these units intervened in your inquiries, were those units
mentioned? Do

9 you know anything about them or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that the accused knows the

11 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina very well and that he is well aware
of all

12 the units that went to war there, and I'm sure he could enumerate
all the

13 Serbs units. If he knows about the Croatian units, I'm sure he
knows much

14 more about those who came from Belgrade and other towns and

15 Croatian and Bosnian towns. However, let me respond once again and

16 that I did not know of a single unit which went from Croatia to

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Is it true that your nephew, who was not a

20 volunteer and who is not from Bosnia-Herzegovina, also went to

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina with his unit? Do you know about that? Are you

22 of that?

23 A. My nephews were not in the army. They were too young to be.

24 Q. All right. We'll get to that later on.

25 But tell me this: How can you, for example, as we spoke a moment

Page 10630












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 10631

1 ago about those incidents and what was going on, to all intents and

2 purposes an aggression, and you say you know nothing about it, this

3 what I have in my hand: The command for the rear of Bosanski Brod

4 Sijekovac. That is where the crimes were perpetrated --

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you now. The witness has given his

6 evidence. He knows nothing about it. Your duty, your function at the

7 moment, is to cross-examine him about his evidence. It's not to make

8 speeches or try and present evidence yourself. Now, he's given his

9 evidence about this matter and he can take it no further. In due

10 if it's relevant, you can call evidence, but for the moment you
must move

11 on to some other topic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to ask the witness

13 respect to what he says he didn't know, how he can --

14 JUDGE MAY: He's told you. He told you he doesn't know. He

15 doesn't know.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His comment on this military

17 document and this is something that will take me 20 seconds to read

18 This is a photocopy with a stamp and signature. It is a permit

19 the intervention platoon from Zagreb, a certificate, in fact, to

20 the detention of women --

21 JUDGE MAY: Is it signed by the witness? What connection does it

22 have with him, before you put it.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The connection it has is -- with the

24 witness is -- this is to say, it is linked with his second function
in the

25 hierarchy of the Republic of Croatia, and this is a certificate
issued to

Page 10632

1 the intervention platoon from Zagreb, which is the capital of

2 where the cabinet of Mr. Mesic is located, a permit allowing the

3 of women, young girls, Serbs, for the needs of the male sex.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what is the connection with this

5 witness, before you put it?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the connection is to show

7 that the units that he says he knows nothing about are not only

8 crimes but are organising rape and all the rest of it.

9 JUDGE MAY: Look, that's nothing to do with the witness. You're

10 here to cross-examine him about these matters. If it's relevant,
you can

11 call evidence in due course, but what you're not here to do is to

12 speeches and try and present evidence that crimes were committed by

13 other side which are irrelevant. Now, this trial, remember, this

14 indictment, is about crimes which are alleged -- it's alleged that

15 committed, and his evidence is about that, so you should
concentrate on

16 that rather than to try and show that crimes were committed by

17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may I just raise a few matters, because

18 it's plainly important to the accused. Perhaps what is at stake
here is

19 the credibility of this particular witness for the Prosecution. In

20 respect of this, the accused is attempting, I believe, to put
forward to

21 the Court various events that occurred during his Presidency of

22 to demonstrate his involvement within the conflict that occurred in

23 region. Those issues may well be important to this accused in
relation to

24 issues of defence of territory, other aspects of the conflict. I

25 have instructions on that matter, so I can't say, but it may well
be that

Page 10633

1 it's the form of questioning that's the problem here. But it's the

2 of what was happening at the time whilst he was president of Croatia

3 whilst troops were leaving the borders of his state.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, much time has been wasted in this trial in

5 trying to establish that crimes were committed by others, which may
or may

6 not be relevant to the trial. That is why it's important to see

7 documents were signed by this witness. If the issue is that it was

8 notorious, if that's the point that is being made, that crimes were

9 put, were being made, were being committed, then that can be put to

10 witness. What can't be put, which is what I suspect the accused is

11 is to read out lists and lists of crimes, taking up time, and
thereby, in

12 my view, raising matters which at this stage are not relevant to

13 trial. Our time is limited. We must stick to the relevant matters.

14 I will put to the witness the general point, and we'll hear what he

15 Mr. Mesic, what may be being suggested is this, and you can help

16 us, if you would: That it was well known that crimes were being

17 in Bosnia during the time of your Presidency. I think this is what

18 being suggested. And therefore you must have known about these

19 apart from them being referred to by the parents of the volunteers

20 members of the armed forces, as you suggested. Now, if that is

21 suggested, then you should answer it. Was this a matter which in
fact was

22 something of general knowledge in Croatia, and in particular, to
you as

23 president at the time?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was the president of the

25 parliament, I knew about the camps organised by the Serbian side in

Page 10634

1 and Herzegovina. I received information, and this was actually shown

2 television ultimately. If there were other crimes, news of them did

3 reach me.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Until when were you president of parliament, Mr. Mesic? Until

6 what date?

7 A. I was president of parliament from the 7th of September, 1992

8 until the 24th of May, 1994.

9 Q. 1994. Very well. In that period of time, I ask you, within that

10 period of time, what you said you don't know, and you said you
inquired of

11 the minister about -- let me tell you: On the 3rd of July, 1993,

12 Mok criticised the Croats because of their activities against the

13 and he issued a protest which he addressed to the government of

14 On the 4th of February, also while you were president of
parliament, the

15 Security Council of the United Nations -- let me repeat- the

16 Council of the United Nations, neither more nor less, issued a

17 warning Croatia that it would be exposed to serious consequences if
it did

18 not withdraw its regular troops from Bosnia within a period of two

19 So this is issued by the Security Council. It was a presidential

20 statement. And yet you, as the president of parliament, say you did

21 know about this. On the same day, the German chancellor, Helmut

22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the Security Council point

23 and then you can tell us what is the relevance of this, Mr.

24 Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's really noteworthy that the

Page 10635

1 accused is now expressing remorse for the sufferings of the Bosniak

2 people. This is really something to be commended. However --

3 JUDGE MAY: Could you deal with the Security Council resolution,

4 please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With respect the resolution, I have

6 already said what I was able to do was to ask the president of the

7 whether our troops had crossed the border. He said no. The Minister

8 Defence said no. I had no other instruments at my disposal.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Very well. May we proceed?

11 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going to proceed with this until you've

12 explained what the relevance is. The indictment charges you with

13 in Croatia in the period between 1990 and 1992. What relevance does

14 conflict between the Muslims and the Croats have in relation to

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what we are speaking of

16 here is not relevance, but rather, the credibility of this witness.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. You can ask questions about the

18 credibility -- wait a moment. You can ask questions relating to the

19 credibility of the witness, but of course you're bound by his
answers and

20 the questions can only go so far as to test their credibility. Now,

21 given you an answer about the Security Council resolution. Your

22 question.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Then I may

24 proceed to my next question.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10636

1 Q. You arrived on the 5th of December in the Croatian parliament.

2 You thanked them for their confidence. This was on the 5th of

3 1991. And you made a notorious statement to the effect that you
thought I

4 have performed my task. Yugoslavia is no more. Is this so, Mr.

5 We saw it on the video we played here a few days ago, and all of

6 Yugoslavia knows about this. You said: I think I have performed my

7 Yugoslavia is no more.

8 A. An excellent question. I will explain what this was about. The

9 Croatian parliament elected me to be the Croatian member of the

10 of Yugoslavia. I went to Belgrade, where first, for several months,
I was

11 not allowed to take up my duties because the Federal Assembly was

12 to meet. After that, the Serbian bloc boycotted my election as

13 under --

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let him finish. You've asked him a

15 question. Let him give his explanation.

16 A. Finally, under pressure from the international community, I was

17 elected president. Croatia adopted a decision on its independence.

18 Croatia, in agreement with the international community, postponed

19 secession from Yugoslavia by three months. This time period had

20 Yugoslavia no longer existed. The federal institutions were no

21 functioning. I returned to Zagreb, and that's precisely what I

22 Because I did not go to Belgrade to open up a house-painting
business. I

23 went there as a member of the Presidency of Yugoslavia. Since

24 no longer existed and the Presidency no longer existed, I had

25 the tasks entrusted to me by the Croatian parliament and was

Page 10637

1 back, ready to take up a different office. What was I to do in

2 when the Presidency no longer existed?

3 Q. Very well, Mr. Mesic. This is truly worthy of admiration, your

4 explanation of what you said, but you haven't told me whether you

5 said: I have performed my task. Yugoslavia is no more.

6 A. The accused is a lawyer. He understands very well what I'm

7 talking about. My task was to represent Croatia in the Federal

8 Presidency.

9 Q. There is no need for you to repeat this. You said this in the

10 Croatian or Serbian language, or whatever you want to call it, and

11 everybody understood it. Your explanation now is obviously an
attempt to

12 make this statement relative, but this is no longer important.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In your public statements, or rather, in Tudjman's public

16 statements on Ban Jelacic Square on the 24th of May, 1992, said

17 would have been no war had not Croatia wanted it. But we thought
that it

18 was only by war that we could win the independence of Croatia.
That's why

19 we had a policy of negotiations behind which we were setting up

20 units. Had this not been so, we would not have reached our goal."

21 this correct, Mr. Mesic?

22 A. I think that this could have been reported only by the Serbian

23 press, because it simply does not correspond to the truth. We know

24 was in control of the press in Serbia. It was the accused, Slobodan

25 Milosevic.

Page 10638












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 10639

1 Q. Unfortunately, a few days ago we watched a video of this, and we

2 saw this speech on Ban Jelacic square, taped on video. Tell me,

3 Do you know that when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded

4 the new constituted was promulgated on the 27th of April, 1992, a

5 declaration was adopted on the goals of the new common state, that
is, the

6 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, according to which, and I quote

7 "Yugoslavia has no territorial pretensions towards any of the former

8 Yugoslav republics." Are you aware of this?

9 A. I don't know what the declaration on the establishing of the

10 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia says, but I do know everything that

11 done to cut off parts of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and
annex them

12 to Serbia.

13 Q. Mr. Mesic, you're telling us fairy tales about Karlovac,

14 Virovitica boundary. When did you ever hear any official of the

15 of Serbia referring to this border, and when did any body or organ
of the

16 Republic of Serbia or anyone in Yugoslavia raise this issue and
talk about

17 such a boundary? This is a pure fabrication that you are launching

18 Where did you get this idea?

19 A. It's quite understandable that those who perpetrated aggression

20 did not make such statements, but the Serbian minister, who was in

21 government, one of the ministers of Mr. Milosevic, visited this

22 with Vojislav Seselj, the Chetnik Vojvoda or leader, to show how
far the

23 interests of Serbia reached.

24 Q. What minister are you referring to? And if a minister visits a

25 spot, if he goes to a certain municipality, does he go to a
boundary or

Page 10640

1 does he mark a boundary? Was he marking a boundary there?

2 A. You understand very well that if someone visits Croatia,

3 especially an official, he should visit the official organs of the

4 Republic of Croatia.

5 Q. What municipal organs are you referring to if someone is visiting

6 a municipality? I didn't know you were a police state of that kind,

7 someone visiting a municipality in Croatia would have to report to

8 police.

9 A. I was not paid to teach the accused Croatian laws. I was paid to

10 implement them.

11 Q. Mr. Mesic, you are a university graduate. Did you ever learn

12 about the rights of peoples to self-determination, and do you know

13 volumes and volumes of books have been written on this topic? Do
you know

14 about this?

15 A. I think this question is pointless. Of course I do. Of course I

16 know about the right to self-determination. This is going too far.

17 Q. Well, then answer me, please: Where did you get the idea that,

18 you said, the Serbs in Croatia do not have a right to

19 Where did you get the idea, as you said on page 2 of your
statement, that

20 according to the constitution of 1974, Yugoslavia was a confederal

21 You know yourself that this is untrue. Show me a single

22 provision to this effect. Is this correct or not, Mr. Mesic?

23 A. The Presidency of Yugoslavia was established as a confederal

24 institution because all decisions were made for the most part by

25 consensus, and the accused knows this very well. He also knows very

Page 10641

1 that according to the constitution of 1974, the republics were

2 states, and he also knows that, by virtue of their association into

3 Yugoslavia, they also had the right to disassociate themselves from

4 Yugoslavia. When a threat arose that Croatia and Slovenia might

5 the same fate as Kosovo, Vojvodina, and Montenegro, Croatia made use

6 its right to disassociate itself, and the Badinter Commission

7 this. Of course the Serbs have a right to their own state. That
state is

8 the Republic of Serbia. But it is well known that national

9 cannot ask to secede from the Republic of Croatia. They could ask

10 that but they could not realise it, because the Republic of Croatia

11 recognised in the borders established by Avnoj and the accused
knows this

12 very well.

13 Q. Do you know that according to the Yugoslav constitution, it was

14 the peoples and not the republics that had sovereignty? Do you

15 that even the coat of arms of Yugoslavia had five torches,

16 five peoples: The Serbs, the Croats, the Slovenes, the Macedonians
and the

17 Montenegrins, and then later on a sixth torch was added when the

18 were declared a constituent people? Are you aware of this, Mr.

19 A. The constituent elements of the Federation were the republics,

20 plus two autonomous provinces: Vojvodina, and Kosovo. Those were

21 constituent elements of the Federation. Symbolism is one thing, but

22 constitutional provisions are quite another.

23 Q. You assert that in the constitutions of Yugoslavia and the

24 republics, it was not the sovereignty of peoples that was the

25 point but the territory of the republics established in 1945; is
that what

Page 10642

1 you're claiming? I just want to be clear so as not to waste time.

2 A. I have said what I had to say about the constituent elements of

3 the Federation. Croatia had the right to self-determination, and the

4 Serbs in Croatia had the right to protection, to protection of their

5 collective rights and of their status as citizens of the Republic of

6 Croatia.

7 Q. Very well. Let us proceed, then. Let us proceed at a faster

8 pace, so please answer me yes or no: Is it correct that all the

9 constitutions of Croatia, until the amendments introduced by you in

10 had a provision about the Serbs as a constituent people, not a

11 minority, as you have just said? For example, the constitution of

12 1963, 1974, the constitutional amendments of July 1990. So these

13 amendments of July 1990 for the first time left out the Serbs as a

14 constituent element of the Republic of Croatia. I'm referring now
to the

15 constitution of the Republic of Croatia. Did all the constitutions

16 contain a provision about the Serbian people as a constituent
people in

17 Croatia; yes or no?

18 A. One cannot reply to this question with yes or no. The

19 constitutions were enacted in different periods of time, in

20 situations, and in different international environments. The

21 constitution, therefore, had different provisions at different
points in

22 time. For example, the Yugoslav and the Croatian constitutions had

23 provision which other constitutions, for example, do not contain,

24 there are two kinds of groups: Narodi and Narodnosti, two kinds of

25 peoples, plus ethnic groups. The constitution was further developed

Page 10643

1 until 1990.

2 Q. So the fact that the Serbs were left out of the constitution was

3 a development.

4 Do you know that on the 14th of May, 1887, the Croatian parliament

5 enacted a provision on the use of the Cyrillic alphabet? Are you
aware of

6 this?

7 A. I was not aware of that particular piece of information, but I do

8 thank the accused for having given me this piece of information.
That is

9 truly meaningful for me.

10 Q. And do you know about the rest, that what the constitution --

11 the assembly of Croatia adopted in 1887 was abolished in 1990 by

12 parliament? They abolished the Cyrillic alphabet as an official

13 alphabet. Do you know about that? You went 150 years backwards. Do

14 know that?

15 A. Yet another piece of information, very important to me, as a

16 lawyer.

17 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Do you remember an entire series of laws,

18 not to mention taking over symbols, the symbols of the Nazi state
of the

19 independent state of Croatia, for example, the law on the Academy

20 Sciences and Arts, the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts? In

21 1 it says that it is the legal successor of the academy from the

22 from 1941 to 1945. The budget for 1991 does not envisage a single

23 for the schools of Serbs in Croatia, but it does envisage money for

24 Italians, Czechs, Ruthenians, and other national minorities. The
law on

25 the government allows the government to take measures against

Page 10644

1 disobedient municipalities. The only executive government in Europe

2 has the right to dissolve municipalities. The law on education
refers to

3 the Croatian language only, and so on and so forth?

4 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. What is the question,

5 Mr. Milosevic?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The question is -- the question is: Is it correct that not only

8 through this behaviour and also the combination of this ethnic

9 towards the Serbs, but it is also through the adoption of many laws,

10 Croatian authorities instigated nationalism and chauvinism not only

11 Croatia but also a discriminatory, an insulting attitude towards
Serbs in

12 Croatia. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?

13 A. Croatia adopted laws that gave equal rights to all its citizens

14 and protect national minorities, all vulnerable groups, actually.

15 National minorities are vulnerable groups, and that is why Croatia

16 positive discrimination of all vulnerable groups.

17 Q. Very well. Then give me a comment with regard to these following

18 statements: There are many such laws, and of course they did have

19 cause concern. For example, a meeting of the parliament on the 4th

20 October, 1990, the 4th of October, 1990, your own assembly. Damir

21 says: "Do not trust the Serbs even when they bring gifts." Stjepan

22 Sulimanac says: "Persons who moved in after 1918, who moved into

23 after 1918, a law should be passed with regard to such persons and

24 should be protection from them." Then MP Ivan Milas says: "We are

25 to use a sword in respect of your rights. The day of a final
showdown is

Page 10645

1 getting near." Another MP says: "All Serbs should be isolated like

2 isolated the Kurds. A ghetto should be established for the Serbs."

3 Praljak, what's his name, one of the helmsmen of the HDZ said in

4 1990: "Outside the boys are already singing we are going to
slaughter the

5 Serbs." And so on and so forth. Is that the right kind of

6 Mr. Mesic? Is that the atmosphere in which the Serbs were supposed

7 view everything that was happening to them with confidence? And in

8 meantime you dismissed practically all Serbs from the state

9 administration?

10 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. Now, you've read out a series --

11 you've read out a series of quotations which are said to have been
made in

12 the parliament.

13 Now, Mr. Mesic, you can deal with that. First of all, do you know

14 if these statements were made, or these sort of statements, and if
so, is

15 there anything that you can tell us about them?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were different statements that

17 will were impermissible, and it is certain that such statements

18 Croatia. As for Slobodan Praljak, I must say that he was never a

19 of the HDZ. When the HDZ was established, he was one of President

20 Tudjman's major critics. Now, why were such statements made? I say

21 as well that they did not work to Croatia's advantage but to its

22 disadvantage. There were rallies of Serbs in various places on the
4th of

23 February, 1990. On the 4th of March, 1990, there was a rally in

24 Gora of people from Lika, Kordun, Banja Luka, Bosanska Krajina, and

25 Vojvodina in Serbia.

Page 10646












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the

13 and English transcripts.













Page 10647

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Was that when Ante Markovic established his own party?

3 A. On the 27th of July, 1990, the Serb assembly passed its so-called

4 decision on Serb autonomy in Croatia. On the 1st of July, 1990 in

5 by Knin, an official statement was made that the Serb Autonomous

6 was established in Croatia, its president being Milan Babic. On the

7 of August, the first roadblocks were on the road in Benkovac, Knin

8 Gradacac. On the 13th of September, there were meetings and rallies

9 persons in Dvor and in various other places. In towns and in

10 municipalities in Croatia where there is a predominantly Serb

11 there were inscriptions saying: "This is Serbia." So it is persons

12 came from Serbia who manipulated the Serb masses in Serbia? Why?

13 Milosevic needed to bring about an insurgency of the Serbs in
Croatia so

14 that he would light the initial fuse for setting Bosnia-Herzegovina

15 fire, because he needed Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what the accused

16 actually did. That is why he should be held accountable. These

17 statements, regrettably, are only in response to statements made by

18 accused.

19 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you see that you're not testifying about anything

20 here except your political and propaganda activities all this time?

21 Because you do not have a single fact here; you only have your own

22 positions and your attacks against Milosevic.

23 A. This is the trial of the accused Slobodan Milosevic. I have

24 sufficient facts in order to believe that he is guilty because he

25 war, he carried out war, and he built into this plan a crime that

Page 10648

1 should be held accountable for.

2 Q. Very well.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let us get back to the subject-matter of the trial.

4 Yes. You are asking about the statements, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I put a question. I said: These laws and the atmosphere in

7 parliament, the atmosphere in Croatia, the dismissals of thousands

8 persons from the administration, from the police, from the media,

9 from the health sector, is that the kind of atmosphere that caused

10 among the Serbs, or was it, as Mr. Mesic just put it now, was it

11 who caused concern and who led to this insurgency? Were these facts

12 life the thing that caused concern among them or did Milosevic come

13 Serbia to make them start a rebellion, now that I've quoted all of

14 A. It wasn't the accused Milosevic who came. His emissaries came,

15 and they were the ones who started the insurgency in Croatia.

16 JUDGE MAY: Can you deal with the allegations which are made,

17 that, first of all, there were the dismissals of thousands of
persons from

18 the administration and the police and the media and the health

19 Now, can you deal with that, Mr. Mesic? Were thousands dismissed?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is an exaggeration

21 to speak of thousands, but that there were dismissals is a fact.

22 were unnecessary dismissals. People also took those who dismissed
them to

23 court and won these cases. I think that these statements that are

24 and inadmissible only work to Croatia's detriment, and I always

25 against that.

Page 10649

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. So the atmosphere and the statements -- I mean, you

3 say now that it is negative, but the atmosphere was there, wasn't
it? So

4 it's not Milosevic who caused an insurgency among the Serbs; it is

5 laws, your pressures, your behaviour, your attacks against people.

6 that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?

7 A. I have to reply once again, and I've already said this.

8 Q. If you've already said it, please don't read out what you've

9 already read out, please.

10 A. Those who wanted to cut off parts of Croatia, parts of the

11 Republic of Croatia, those are the ones who are to be blamed for

12 radical statements that were made.

13 Q. Well, look, somebody wanted to cut off parts of your territory.

14 Susanne Woodward from the Brooking Institution, an institution of

15 renown throughout the world, she says:

16 "Smashed stores fronts, fire bombs thrown and harassed and

17 arrested potential Serb leaders. In many parts of Croatia Serbs

18 expelled from jobs because of their nationality."

19 JUDGE MAY: You can call her to give evidence if you want. Yes.

20 Was there an atmosphere, Mr. Mesic, to cause the Serbs to have

21 fear at this time or is that not so?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an exaggeration to say that

23 there was an atmosphere of fear, but that there were improper and

24 inadmissible statements, that is a fact. Also there were dismissals

25 were wrong; however, people took those who dismissed them to court

Page 10650

1 they won those cases.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You mean those 100,000 Serbs who fled Croatia already in 1990,

4 they won these cases for their own jobs; is that what you're trying

5 say?

6 A. The accused is a lawyer, and he knows that only a person who is a

7 plaintiff can win a case.

8 Q. Well, we heard your own statements of a few minutes ago about

9 those murders, what kind of rule of law you had. We're going to hear

10 others later as well. I assume that you're not joking now when

11 referring to --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time has come to move on from this

13 sort of argument, which doesn't assist the Court.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Do you remember the statement made by the

16 famous artist Edo Murtic in Novi Liste [phoen], a daily from
Rijeka, made

17 in June 2000? I'm quoting him: "I remember how a few months prior
to the

18 elections in 1990" - he is referring to his conversation with
Tudjman -

19 "how he came to me quite delighted, believing that he would turn me

20 his Augustincic. He thought that we would now do what the Ustashas

21 Pavelic did not do in 1941. He said that he would send 250.000

22 packing away and the remaining 250.000 would be killed." So these

23 your own newspapers. It's not a Belgrade newspaper. This is Edo

24 a famous artist, painter, a well-known intellectual. Do you
remember that

25 statement of his about this conversation before the elections in

Page 10651

1 And I quoted Susan Woodward a few minutes ago and she is referring
to the

2 atmosphere before 1990, before the elections.

3 JUDGE MAY: The witness can deal with the conversation by -- or

4 comments by the artist which has been referred to.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The artist Edo Murtic is a friend of

6 mine, by the way, but I do admit that I haven't read that particular

7 statement of his.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. Tell me, please: I'm just going to briefly quote the

10 newspaper Feral Tribune on the 21st of April, 2001, autumn 2001,
there was

11 a hunt against the Serbs in 1991. It says: "Mercep's killers were

12 killing Serbs en masse in Pogracka [phoen], Puljane [phoen], they

13 taking people out of their homes in Zagreb and they were trying
them but

14 firing bullets into their heads. Norac Oreskovic and others applied

15 similar methods when dealing with the innocent Serbs of Gospic.

16 Spectacular Crystal Nights were organised in Zadar during which
tens of

17 houses were destroyed whose inhabitants had the wrong chromosomes."

18 Is that correct, Mr. Mesic? Is that what the Croatian newspaper

19 Feral Tribune said or did this Croatian newspaper lie when they
said that?

20 A. There were crimes, and I always asked for them to be

21 and the perpetrators to be punished. Croatia did not have
sufficient rule

22 of law, and after all, that is how I won the election, because I
have been

23 calling for true rule of law in Croatia. Crimes were committed and

24 perpetrators should be brought to justice. But that is no reason

25 destroying Dubrovnik, for destroying Vukovar, for destroying

Page 10652

1 cities. Criminals should be prosecuted, but towns should not be

2 destroyed.

3 Q. Correct. Perpetrators should be prosecuted, perpetrators should

4 be tried, but the only question is: Who criminals were. Who were the

5 criminals? That's the only question. And criminals should certainly

6 prosecuted and brought to justice, certainly.

7 So that is the whole point. That is the inversion that was made,

8 Mr. Mesic; isn't that right? You are testifying here that I was the

9 who broke up Yugoslavia and you were in favour of Yugoslavia and any

10 in Yugoslavia knows --

11 A. I think that we can reach agreement on one thing very quickly

12 here. I am not the person on trial here.

13 Q. Well, that's the point.

14 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time, Mr. Milosevic.

15 Half past. Twenty minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm going to show you now that you weren't speaking the truth a

21 moment ago when we were discussing an issue and questions about the

22 who were fighting in Bosnia who were not volunteers. And when I
asked you

23 about your nephew, who was also in Bosnia, a Croatian soldier
there, and

24 he was not a volunteer. He was born in Slavonia so he was not from

25 either and had nothing to do with Bosnia, and you said that that
was not

Page 10653

1 true, not correct; isn't that so? Now take a look at your own

2 in a case - or rather, when you speak about this same subject, it is

3 7266 of the transcript - while you were testifying here in this same

4 building --

5 JUDGE MAY: This is, so we've got it, is this in -- not in

6 Dokmanovic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it isn't. It's in the other

8 case, the other trial, where Mr. Mesic was a protected witness. And
so I

9 wish to adhere to the rules, although the Slobodna Dalmacija paper

10 publicise this. I don't want to make explicit mention of it. And

11 Mr. Mesic, as we can see, is a witness, has been a witness in many

12 a witness for the Prosecution, which also demonstrates this

13 JUDGE MAY: No. That's just --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I was talking about. All

15 right. But this is what it says here. May I read it out?

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And I'm reading out your own transcript, not mine, when you're

18 talking about whether they were in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He says the

19 following: "Whether there were any, I cannot tell [In English] I
was not

20 an inspector, nor was it up to me to establish it. But my nephew

21 Mesic, who was a Croat soldier, he was in Bosnia. He came back from

22 and he was not a volunteer in Bosnia. He was born in Slavonia. He

23 nothing in common with Bosnia, but he was there."

24 Therefore, you told an untruth a moment ago. You even said that

25 your nephews were too young, whereas here in this transcript from

Page 10654












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 10655

1 testimony which was given under oath, you are saying something quite

2 different, in fact. Is that right, Mr. Mesic, or is it not?

3 A. My two nephews live in France, and two of them live in Belgrade.

4 And during the war, they were minors. It is a relation of mine, a

5 cousin. The interpretation of that was probably erroneous. Who said

6 that -- who told me he was in Bosnia. That is what he told me and
that is

7 what I said.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I -- I didn't want to interrupt that

10 last exchange, given that it had started, but any further reference

11 protected testimony should itself be given in private session.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see why this should be given

14 in private session, Mr. May, when I am making no mention here of --

15 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what it refers to, actually.

17 JUDGE MAY: Those are the Rules. Any reference to private-session

18 matters should be in private session. Yes, let's go on.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see that I have infringed

20 upon your procedure in any way by having brought that up.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When you were asked by a representative of the accused, did you

23 a speaker take any steps for this matter to be investigated?
Because of

24 course [In English] It is the assembly's responsibility regarding
the use

25 of the army outside its border. Did you form a commission? Did you

Page 10656

1 this issue on agenda --

2 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't, please. I don't want to

4 waste time. I won't carry on with that.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So when weren't you speaking the truth, Mr. Mesic: Now or then,

8 when you made that statement which was under oath again?

9 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If there's anything you

10 want to add, Mr. Mesic, you can.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The direct question was whether my

12 nephew was there, and I said no. A relative, a relation of mine,

13 which means that individuals were there who were not born in
Bosnia. But

14 apart from that one individual that I did know, I wasn't able to

15 who was there.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, whether you say nephew or relative or distant cousin or

18 whatever I read out here, that's what it said, so there can be no

19 there or confusion. Let's move on.

20 Is it true that in your presence Tudjman said that at the end of

21 the war there would be 5 per cent of Serbs in Croatia, by the end
of the

22 war?

23 A. Yes, that is what he said. He said that was his assumption.

24 Q. Is it also true that he said that Tudjman thought that the 1938

25 solution for Croatia was the<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)